I don't know anyone who doesn't like him.
Two hours to write in a coffeeshop. With hot coffee. And no children. I sat down with the exhilaration of anticipation and waited too long to stick on my headphones and start my current obsession of the entire a-ha back catalog.
I have long been (respectfully) amused and interested in the culture of senior males who come into coffee shops to hang out and talk loudly about the state of the world. A quick scan of the small table across from me led to a confirmation of what I could have determined from listening to twenty seconds of their dialog: early- to mid-70s Caucasian males, talking politics. Politics that were possibly as far removed from my positions as possible. But I had work to do, so I close-mouth smiled and cracked open my laptop and started to turn on music, but it was…
…too late:
Sketch of Joseph and two friends discussing why Donald Trump is a poor leader. This point is not agreed upon by all parties portrayed in this image.
Too late.
…”I don’t get who these people are! I don’t know anyone who doesn’t like Trump,”
one said to the other.
I could stay silent no longer.
I leaned forward, raised my hand, and said: “Would you tell me what you like about Trump?”
They looked at me, and shifted body position enough to include me in their back and forth.
Thus began the next 90 minutes of dialogue. I thanked them at three separate points for being gracious and respectful in allowing me to jump into their conversation. Spoiler alert: no minds were changed. But I asked them, at the end, to consider a few things. And I got a selfie.
Cleaning the swamp
“That’s what CEOs do!”
One of them said.
“He talks straight and I don’t like how he always says it but he’s tired of the corruption. They’re all corrupt. He’s a leader, and that’s what leaders do. Democrats are afraid of him.”
How do you reconcile the Republicans and conservatives who have spoken against him?
Egos. They have their pride wounded, and in a corporation you try people out and see how things work. He’s a perfectionist. If they’re not doing their job, he moves them out, and people don’t always like that. They have their egos hurt.
Racism
How do you feel about racism? Jeff asked.
“Umm…” I replied. “I’m not in favor.”
Mick picked up the ball. “Here’s the thing: I’m a racist. We’re all racist. I don’t think I’m better than a black person. We’re all equal, and there’s a lot of good ones. But the Democrats have brainwashed them and blacks are hateful towards white people. It’s true. Most of them are. Not all of them. There’s a black who works over in the Safeway pharmacy and he came over from Africa, and he’s, he’s a really decent guy. Just really great and decent and doesn’t have that attitude that most of them have. I don’t have a problem with blacks. But we’re all racist. I admit it.”
Eddie Gallagher
We talked about Eddie Gallagher, the Navy Seal who Trump pardoned after being convicted, via the Uniform Code of Military Justice, for stabbing to death an injured and sedated 17-year old ISIS prisoner…and then photographing himself with the corpse.
He was also accused by his fellow Navy SEAL snipers of also randomly shooting Iraqi civilians. Fast forward through the military justice system, and President Trump decided to jump in and * short version * remove all charges, disciplinary measures, stripping of pension, etc. He also directed that the Navy revoke Navy Achievement Medals that had been given to the prosecution against Gallagher. This seems, to me, a clear cut case of undercutting confidence in the very system he is Commander in Chief of…
…but Jeff disagreed.
“I mean yes, there’s a chain of command, but he is the Commander in Chief, and it’s his Presidential prerogative. It is. I mean, what did Gallagher do? That general just threw him in prison for taking a picture with a dead Taliban. That’s just wrong.
Note: “that general” did not just “throw him in prison.” He went through the entire justice process, as demanded by the Justice System within the army.
“…let em kill the bad guys,”
Jeff said.
”I mean, there’s ten-year olds that carry around bombs in those countries, and you don’t know if you he might have had a bomb or not. Gallagher might have thought he did, and…that’s what you do. You shoot em. You gotta just let ‘em kill the bad guys.”
How to throw your friend under the bus
“Well, Jeff here ran off to Canada to get out of Vietnam!”
one of them chuckled.
I chuckled too. Because that’s funny. Two Trump supporters talking about Trump, and two-thirds of them, including the Commander-in-Chief, avoided Vietnam service through dubious means - at least if Jeff’s loyal friend’s comment is taken at face value. I meant to return to that statement, but wasn’t able to do so.
Family
“I am a Christian,” I said. “That’s why I oppose Trump so strongly. Eighty-one percent of Evangelicals support him. Now you know one of the 19 percent. It is because I am Christian, above anything else, that I cannot and will not support his Presidency and administration.”
Media
“They’re all corrupt.”
they confirmed to each other.
“Give me one paper or magazine to read,” I said. “One that you consider a legitimate source.”
This is the first time in modern political history that basic facts are not considered facts.”
I said.
“Well, the media has had it out for him from the beginning,” Jeff said. “They hate him. The Democrats control the media and he’s a threat to their power. He came in and said ‘no more.’ He’s getting us back to a balance of power.’”
Family, part 2
“I have four kids,” I said. “And I consider it our mandate to try and leave the world a little better. For them and future generations.”
“I started paying attention to politics, current affairs, and government in the mid-80s,” I continued. Iran-Contra, Challenger, Dukakis-Bush, all that. And I have told our kids again and again: this is not normal. What is happening now is not normal.”
“We have a leader who bullies and lies.”
“Well, you gotta understand, he’s a strong leader,” Jeff said. “Like these uh, big corporations, with CEOs. They gotta come in sometimes and clean things up. Get rid of the corruption and incompetence.”
Loyalty
“He demands loyalty,” I said. “Up until the point someone disagrees with him or they’re a liability. Then his loyalty disappears in a flash.”
“When you’re the leader,” Jeff said, “you have to make tough decisions and I just think he’s a perfectionist. He wants people in the right positions, and he’s not afraid to make sure he’s got the right people and move them around or fire them if they’re not doing their job. But people have their egos and they get fired and then they go crying about it. Human nature.”
Liberalism, facts, gender, and tax returns
“You’ve got a good heart,” Mick said. “I just wish we could straighten you out and get you to look at the facts instead of all the feel good stuff. I mean it’s good to love people and all, but we have enemies. Liberals are all about feelings, and you can’t say this or do that. The gays want to marry, and next thing they want to tell you everything you can do.”
Jeff nodded wisely. “Liberals are emotional. They’re like women, they’re emotional and nursing (note: I believe he meant “nurturing.”)
He continued. “Women are nursing, they, uh, are caring and nursing, but you have to look at the facts. Liberals don’t want to look at those. They’ve had it out for Trump since the beginning, and they can’t stand how he’s taking power away from them, how he’s standing up to them.”
I chuckled mirthlessly. “Well Jeff, I find it very interesting that you’re using facts and science to defend the Republican positions. I am a strong proponent of following the facts. You know what would be a great fact to look at? Our President’s tax returns. Those would be some interesting evidence to go through.”
“The media would distort all of it,” he said.
“But if he simply released them,” I said, “then the cold hard facts would be out there, and people could determine for themselves what they meant.”
“He doesn’t have to,” Jeff reminded me.
“True,” I said. “But he’s the first modern President to not do so. And he said he would. He lied. Which he is very good at.”
God
“This nation is heading toward socialism, and that always means society and country will fall apart,” Mick said.
“I am angry and sad and frustrated,” I said. “That Trump has swung the pendulum so far to the right. What it means is that the next wave of Democrats taking power will aim to swing the pendulum perhaps equally far to the left. And I’m not in favor of some of those positions. But it has to happen. Let me ask you a question: how do you feel about John McCain, about the Republicans and ex-military, and many other conservatives who have spoken out against Trump? Not Democrats. But conservatives and Republicans. How do you rationalize that?”
“McCain wasn’t strong enough or decisive enough to be a leader,” Jeff said with finality, in reference to the former Senator who spent six years in a Hanoi prison.
More family
“The family is falling apart,” Mick said. “Our country is going downhill because of that. No more family values.”
“I agree!” I said. “I agree so strongly! We need stronger families! I believe that everyone, starting with children, needs connection, needs to belong. We live in the richest, most powerful country in the world, and what are the diseases and afflictions we deal with? Different from say, Ethiopia or even India. We deal with people’s whose minds or hearts are broken, and so much comes from loneliness and a lack of connection. We need to do better. Starting with the family. Starting with our kids.”
“Yep,” Jeff said. “And the big thing for me is abortion. I just can’t be in support of murdering millions of unborn babies.”
“I can respect that,” I said. “I can understand a little your feelings on that,” and I segued back: “I am certainly conservative in certain aspects. Kids need to learn how to work again. They need to learn how to be bored again and how to entertain themselves and keep their attention on something.”
“Well good luck with that,” Jeff grunted. “Government won’t even let kids work anymore until they’re eighteen. Can’t even do work at home, except for unloading the dishwasher or that type of thing.
Hillary
“I will process your belief that Trump truly puts this country’s interests above that of his own,” I said. “I will try to do that. And would you do something for me?”
They looked at me suspiciously.
“Would you try,” I asked. “To remember and to believe that Democrats love this country too? Including Hillary. Yes, Hillary Clinton. And Nancy Pelosi. And Barack Obama.”
Jeff spoke up. “I never said anything too bad about Obama, I just couldn’t stand what he did to this country.”
“Then,” I said, “please consider that when you’re talking about him or Democrats. Disagree on policy, if you will. But don’t demean them or their patriotism or love for our country.”
They nodded.
“I’m voting for whoever has the best chance of getting Trump out office in the next election,” I said. “I’ve always been Independent, but I am voting Democrat because I believe so strongly, for the future of this country and our children, that we need someone else. But I am willing to consider what you have said about believing his loyalty to our country above that of his own self-interest. That’s a hard thing for me to consider anymore. But I’ll think about it. Will you do the same?”
Finale
“I’m gonna ask you a favor,” I said. “You can say no, it’s okay. But I’d like to think we’re parting on friendly terms. Can I get a picture of you? A selfie?”
They looked at each other, leaning toward not.
“Come on,” I pressed. “If you don’t want to, it’s fine. But this has been an interesting conversation and now you know someone who doesn’t vote for Trump. What do you say?”
They reluctantly agreed.
“Thank you for letting me interrupt your conversation,” I said. “I know I haven’t changed your mind, and you certainly haven’t changed mine, but I’d love to ask you two things.”
“Okay,” Mick said suspiciously.
“I’d like to ask that you be consistent in showing grace to others. You quickly defend Trump’s patriotism and heart. Do the same thing for the politicians you disagree with. Give Obama the benefit of the doubt when talking about him and don’t question his patriotism. You can disagree with him on policy, but don’t talk about him as if he was not fully committed to this country. Do the same thing for the Democrats you can’t stand.”
They looked at me silently, shaking their heads. “You’ve got a good heart,” Mick said. “Just wish we had some more time to get you straightened out.”
“The other thing,” I continued. “Is to follow the facts. Don’t dismiss facts you don’t like. And don’t dismiss the media as being corrupt.”
“Well the truth is they are,” Mick said. “You really don’t understand how deep the deep state runs. It runs deep.”
“Again,” I said, “I feel as strongly about the First Amendment as you feel about the Second. I support both. But to put it into terms that might make sense to you: I am as concerned about the erosion of the press’s freedom, in the First Amendment, as you are about erosion of guns right in the Second.”
He shook head. “Something has to be done about the media’s corruption.”
“The media’s corruption.” I said. “The media’s corruption? It sounds like we’re wading into 1st Amendment waters, and I have pretty strong feelings on that. What specific examples are you thinking of in which inaccurate, false, or out of context information was used. Mr. President has done that repeatedly. Over and over. Documented in reality with incontrovertible supporting evidence. And…what is your response to Trump’s explanations, time and time again, for his explanations that defy reality?”
We engaged in conversational merry-go-round for a bit longer. They tag teamed and looked to each other for support. Two elderly gentlemen who graciously allowed a young muscular intellectually superpowered brazen fellow to bulldoze into their conversation. They engaged and they talked and they interrupted and I interrupted a few times too…
…and I thanked them again for letting me dive in, and repeated my request to consider showing respect and the possibility that there might be something; some things to consider that the President and his cohorts might be…mistaken or dishonest about, and maybe there are good people who support new leadership in next year’s election, and maybe some of those people are worth listening to.
Maybe.
“Well, maybe we’ll see you again and have more time to get you straightened out,”
Jeff said.
I took a deep breath and smiled. “Well, maybe in between now and then, you’ll be able to brag to your friend and family and everyone you know that now, you know someone who doesn’t agree with this President and is working hard to get him replaced in the next election.”
I waved, and left. But then I realized I forgot to get a coffee refill, so I abandoned the dignified exit I had just done and went back in. They were talking about me.
